Rudolf
Jun 12 2006, 08:30 PM
well this topic come up on the other thread, and I was asked by Kevin, to start the new thread
about this.
I think the idea is to stay away from all the other issues there, clearly only on 1 specific topic.
So the question is, do You think, that it is good, beneficial or counterproductive to have 400m reps session few days before the most important triathlon race of the year ?
I assume it is the olympic distance stuff 1500mswim, 40k bike and 10 k run.
The question has really 2 different parts :
is the 400m reps run to exhaustion good in the tri preparation at all,
and the second part, is it good just few days before important race.
My view is that it is not, in either case.
I use to love these 400m rep session way back as a coach and love to run them as well. Since than I changed my view on this 180 degree, and do not think they are good for purely aerobic events,
like the ones lasting 2+hours.
Before I get into arguments, I would like to see what others think,
the experienced triathlets, and than the ruuning experts here.
rohan
Jun 12 2006, 09:35 PM
no real expert here, but i do the occasional tri.
can't see a prob with the 400m rep session, particularly if you are used to it, though if it's close to a big event then i presume you diminish the amount of reps you do.
re olympic distance tris.
there are two events there.
1. the "pro" event where they are allowed to draft
2. the age group event where you aren't allowed to draft.
the age group event is thus one big time trial really, whereas the pro event is a real race.
some critics say that these days the pro event is designed for runners who can swim.. that is if you can get out of the water early enough then you coast along with the first bike pack and then the whole thing is down to a running race.
this is not a "purely aerobic" event as there are the inevitable surges, counter surges, attempted breaks etc.
all these tactics involve anaerobic effort, and obviously the ability to quickly recover is necessary.
not sure that answers your question rudolf, but i hope it gives a little extra background.
400 reps are very useful for athletes pro or age group to use as part of their training but are pointless in my opinion a few days out from a race. Unless the are run as some 65-75% pace work just to get some leg speed happening. My advice would be use them weeks out from the race during the peaking period before the taper starts. I would also restrict this advice to pro or top of the tree age groupers only as these people may need to be able to surge during or near the end of the run to get a result in placement. All others are racing for a time and as such will probably benefit from learning how to run a very even paced race.
A few days out you should be resting up and doing a few easy loosening sessions just to stay sane and be getting fresh and psyched for a big performance in a few days time.
alchemy
Jun 13 2006, 04:00 AM
Neithier a coach nor experienced triathlete, but going by the many training plans I've sifted through over the last few months I'd have to agree with B+, just before the taper to get some leg speed happening seems to be a popular choice. Especially when Tri programs tend to focus on aerobic work for most of the leadup. You really need to sharpen up before the race, 10k olympic distance is still run at a decent enough speed to make leg speed training important.
A good case in point is Anne Garton's coach. They did their 400 repeats (as seen on Australian Story) 3 weeks out from the Age Group Champs. ;)
SlingRunner
Jun 13 2006, 04:31 AM
I'm not a running expert nor having ever done a triathlon (can't swim :o ).
Here's my 2 cents (from a running angle):
You won't reap the benefits of the 400s done a few days before the key race because physiological adaptations typically take 10-21 days. In other words, the benefits will not show up in time for race day.
However, you can do a bit of fast-stuff in order to create OPTIMAL MUSCLE TENSION for the race. Months & months of distance training will make your legs to lose muscle power & quickness.
Doing striders or short bursts (100s/200s) will help to promote NEURAL STIMULATION in your legs. In layman terms, it's like waking up the legs. Because these sessions are short, they will not interrupt your taper program.
Paul Tergat did 15 x 180-200m accelerations four days before 2002 London Marathon (2:05:xx) . Chema Martinez of Spain did 2 sets of 5x200m four days before winning the 2002 European Championship. Greg Meyer did 6x330 yards three days before winning 1982 Chicago Marathon (2:10:59).
run jane run
Jun 13 2006, 05:25 AM
I think the 'slow and furious' needs to change his name. How did you go from 49 minutes to 39ish minutes in 1 year. WOW!
Rudolf
Jun 13 2006, 01:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Slow & The Furious:
Paul Tergat did 15 x 180-200m accelerations four days before 2002 London Marathon (2:05:xx) . Chema Martinez of Spain did 2 sets of 5x200m four days before winning the 2002 European Championship. Greg Meyer did 6x330 yards three days before winning 1982 Chicago Marathon (2:10:59).
the question here is of course the pace.
was 6x330y done to exhaustion each, or was it a marapace or 10k pace ?
SlingRunner
Jun 13 2006, 06:01 PM
Rudolf,
Doing 200s/400s at marathon pace will not do anything much. To create neural stimulation (quick leg turnover), the pace needs to be fast but not strained (e.g. 1 mile-3k for elites or 3k-5k for mortals) & brief enough so that lactate/acidosis doesn't accumulate significantly.
I need to look at Tergat's biography book at home to find out the pace for his 200s. But here are one-week pre-race schedules for the other two:
Greg Meyer:
Sept 20 Mon. A.M. 10
Sept 21 -Tues. A.M. 10
Sept 22- Wed. P.M. 8
Sept 23 - Thur A.M. 8; PM. 4 up , 6 x 330 @ 46 , 1 down
Sept 24 - Fri P.M. 6
Sept 25 - Sat A.M. 4
Sept 26 - Sun. A.M. 2 up , 26.2 Race - Chicago Marathon - ***1 st , 2:10:59***
Chema Martinez:
M- 14k @ 160 bpm pm- 12k easy on grass + 10 strides
T- 8x1000m 2:38-2:40 ( last in 2:34 ) 90 sec rest
W- 14k finishing 166-168bpm pm 14k easy
R- 14k very easy
F- 6x( 600-200 ) in 96 and 28 sec with :30 and :90 sec rec. pm 12k on grass 150 bpm
S- 12 k easy
S- 12k easy pm 2X5X200m last in :25
Total 158km
M- 10k very easy
T- 6k + strides
W- European Championships 10,000m
Why do threads like this always end up the same way....
A question is asked for an age group/average triathlete situation and then the answers end up using the best runners in the world as the example of why or why not the method works.
Tergat's easy days would probably blow plenty of us away so it's like explaining what Mark Webber does to drive a F1 car fast as a way to justify a skill to an owner of a 4 cylinder Barina. Nice theory but of little practical value.
Rudolf
Jun 13 2006, 07:09 PM
B+ has a valid argument here.
The slow and the furious :
200m in 28 sec and the pace of 3km for the 400m etc is not running short reps to exhaustion, this was discussed many times before, what is 28 sec for the runner with the speed 22 sec.
So none of that is running 400m reps in anaerobic state, to exhaustion, or with the coach comment - give me what You've got.
As a note of topic, the argument of Gelindo Bordin runninmg 50km time trial 3 weeks before winning olympic gold, and running about (5) days
before the olympic winn the natioanl Italian halfmarathon championship and winning with good margin - run flat out.
This would also not be faired to used for the other side of training spectrum.
SlingRunner
Jun 13 2006, 07:16 PM
B+,
Rudolf's question was about the pace for reps. If Greg Meyer did his 300s in 46s (~1-mile pace), then 'an average Joe' can do his at PERSONAL MILE PACE, e.g. 90ses for 300s or whatever.
If Tergat does 15x200s at his pace, why can't an average Joe do 10x200s at his own pace?
If Mona does his 18mins fartlek, why can't an average Joe do a 'HALF-MONA' (9-mins fartlek) a few days before the race?
I'm not advocating runners to adopt elite training, but to learn from the elites. Just run it at your own pace or do a cut down version, that it. (at least, it works for me)
Furious, while your points are valid the issue is most runners don't learn from the elites they copy the elites and then get injured or perform below their potential due to being smashed.
The overall condition and knowledge of their own bodies of the elite or very experienced runners allows them to back up much more easily than a less experienced runner and they can therefore handle higher or more intense training loads. whilst running reps a few days before a race at the right pace may help some athletes most will not get the pace right due to feeling fresh and then going to hard and doing their best efforts on the training track and not the race. In my experience it is best not to tempt fate with these sessions at this time of the preperation for most athletes.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please
click here.