I have just completed my third long distance triathlon event having done two half ironman events and the Jervis Bay long course. I swim really well - loved the swell of the ocean on Sunday and I ride pretty good too but .. my running just doesn't cut it! I suffer lower back pain and too much head talk about not enjoying it. I do a couple of run sessions a week including a track/hills session, fartlek and longer run but just struggle when it comes to the run leg of a long course triathlon - even find the shorter ones difficult. Any advice or good sites to help me improve my running and maybe my headspace! :unsure:

For the running read the tread : Treshold training....

for the head space, find the good NLP practicioner is Sydney (should not be the problem), however all the podiatrists would dissagree with the advice

You need to explain your training in much more detail. Do you get your back pain after the bike or on the bike or even when you just run without a bike ride first?
What is you training back ground?
have you had back injuries prior to triathlon?
where in sydney are you located.
Lets see your splits from Jervis bay to have some factual info to work from? Several athletes I coach raced this too and thought that some aspects of the race didn't go as well as they would have liked, but once we looked at splits and age group placings they realized that things were better than they thought.
Lets see some detils and maybe we can help you from there :)

As a very amateur triathlete, I've also experienced back and ITB issues that I'd never had from just running. Flexibility seems to be the key, particularly for long course events.

Speak to a sports physio, as my guess would be that your hip flexors are too tight (from cycling for long distances), which can lead to anterior pelvic tilt, and pressure on your lower back.

As for motivation, this is outside my area of expertise, but a good sports psychologist could help. I would hazard a guess that not enjoying the run could be linked to the back pain though.

I think that you may have answered your own question.
I do a couple of run sessions a week including a track/hills session, fartlek and longer run but just struggle when it comes to the run leg.
To be successful in the run leg you need to do more running. A couple of times just is no way near enough.Find a coach in your local area who is able to work with you and your other commitments. If you are anywhere near the Hills area we have some great coaches that would be able to assist. But there are plenty around so look for one that suits you.

As B+ said, we probably need more info to be able to help you properly. However, my initial 2 suggestions (forgetting about the back pain just for the moment), would be to ensure you NEVER miss your long run - and make sure your long run actually is long, and gets built on (increase by say 10 minutes) from week to week. Comfortably completing 25km+ runs will give you the confidence your headspace needs to race the HIMs and Long Course Tris.

And ensure you're doing at least 1 brick session a week, preferably 2. It only needs to be an hour's ride followed by a 10-15 minute run - but it will make the world of difference (assuming again that the back pain isn't something directly related to the transition from bike to run)

Thanks for all these wonderful replies! I think doing more brick sessions will be good because I don't think I did enough before Jervis.

I generally get lower back pain whether or not I run and I have been doing pilates for core strength as I know that when I get fatigued I get lazy and drop my form so this seems to help a little. I injured my lower back doing weights years ago and it has always bveen a weakness.

I generally ride 3 times a week - 1 session of hill sprints, 1 session flat with timed spinning and one long Sunday session ranging from 2.5 - 4.5 hours of varying terraine including big hills in the Royal National Park.

I swim 2-3 times a week - 1 squad, 1 drills and sprints and 1 ocean swim.

I run about 3, sometimes 4 times per week - 1 session track or hills, 1 optional 30-40 minute flat recovery, 1 hour fartlek and 1 long session with the first hour usually in a group run of varying terraine followed by somewhere between an additional 20-50 minutes of undulating, slow pace.

I try to have one rest day per week.

I have never been a runner - although I have completed 3 marathons - 2 I enjoyed and one I didn't really have much fun. I started running about 5 years ago and have only just started doing triathlons in the last couple of years (I am 42 by the way).

Jervis Bay results were - swim 29.52, ride 2hrs 50 and run 2.15. Overall 17th in age group. Its not that I want to be a serious contender in my age group - I have too much fun to be too serious, rather I really want to enjoy or feel better on the run leg.

Sorry for the long rambling reply.

So You start the run leg after 3and 1/2 hour of serious activity (swimm,ike), and run for another 2 hours.

This sounds like a short ultra (6hour race).
And You do not want to be competitive, just enjoy the run.

From these 2 facts, this is what I see :

You doing various sprint sessions (swimm, bike, run), which are counterproductive to You aerobic development for the 6 hour race.

Speed will come with better endurance.
Sprint session are just killing all the aerobic enzymes etc. You are sabotaging Your progress.

Go to the tread about treshold training, read the discussions about Lydiard principle etc.

You create constant acidosis in Your body.

What I am going to say now, will be surprising and not acceptable to many (including health professionals).
The acidosis (result of sprint, hard, anaerobic training) is affecting the whole body, imune system etc, and sensitive parts of the body are suffering first.
The parts of the body of previous injuries, are too sensitive to the acidosis, and the pain is
quite strong.
If the athlets stops doing anaerobic training, and goes first on very slow training - all the sessions just recovery pace, later bit faster - just slow aerobic pace, the acidosis clears, the body heals, etc.

I have personal experience with this, and experience with lots of other runners. This symptom is very noticable with chronic achiless
problems, wher with some runners it is the acidosis of the fast session causing the pain.

So Your back could be responding to this.

I'd recommend doing more running off the bike. When I was training for ironman, I did four run sessions per week - and two of them were off the bike. In pre-season, I'd do about 40 min off the bike or up to an hour. The runs were easy distance which changed to an interval session and a long surge session during peak season. I didn't get injured even though I'd had a history of overuse injuries - I reached a max of about 5-6 hours of running per week.

Practising running off the bike will teach you more about pacing yourself on the bike. Strong cyclists tend to focus too much on gaining time on the bike and finish that leg too sore to put in a good run. It also teaches you how to pace your run.

I always found it took about 1km to get my rhythm in the run, so I took to running for 5min at the end of every bike ride. As an aside, my half marathon PB happened on a day I rode my bike to the start line (got there 10 min before race start), changed my shoes, checked in my gear and started the race - and it's probably because that's what I was used to.

Of course there are many other factors that can help, including changing bike setup (more forward seat position).

Princessbb, I agree with Rodulf here forget the sprint type work in all three disiplines as strong aerobic conditioning is whats needed. Tank Girls on he money too...run off the bike.
With out being able to get exact details from you to be more specific here is a fairly decent basic structure to follow that will work. Remember though all programs are dynamic and change constantly.

Swim x3 do 3 squad session if you can cope if not do 2 and 1 drill based set on your own.

Bike x3 2 shorter rides 1 easy spin at 105-120rpm for 30sec-1min with 5 min easy riding between. this opens up neural pathways and allows you to pedal more effienently. 2nd ride do seated strength endurance efforts of between 5 and 10 min at 70-80rpm at a moderate pace. sit still and don't sway your upper body.
1 long ride 3-5hrs at easy to moderate pace with several aerobic pace efforts of 10min building to 30 min at 95-100rpm on your aero bars with equal time recovery between.
Run x1 off long bike for 30-90min at moderate pace.
1 off easy bike ride as a just below threshold type pace, i.e. solid 10k pace for 20-40min
1 moderte pace long run 60-120min.
1 easy recovery type run with some stride outs.
Hope this helps a bit. ;)

are you built like a dolphin?
ie. are you heavy?
did a quick scan of this thread and didn't see a discussion about weight. swimmers and cyclists tend to be heavier than runners as bodyfat is less of a detriment to them and some for a swimmer is potentially useful, whereas for running fat is a real problem.

is this a potential area for improvement?

or are you perhaps just biomechanically less suited to running?

btw running training seems to be more advantageous to your cycling than cycling training to running, so if making a choice between a run or a ride i'd err on the side of running.

rohan,
Your statement, that cyclist are fatter than runners is surprising to me.
Cycling is usually much better fat burner than running, and cycling sessions are much longer.
In riding uphills, You feel every extra gram, so cyclist are concern with their fat too.
What other people think ???

I'd love to be able to swim as well as a dolphin. I'm the opposite. Swim like a rock, ride OK, run well.

Most, in the tri-club I am with are like you. Thing is, they all have the potential to run well but focus too much on their core strengh, the swim. My view is, if your a good swimmer, really how much time would you lose in an Ironman event by cutting out some swim sessions & picking up your running volume. Time wise the swim is the shortest leg. It makes sense, sacrifice 5mins on the swim for a potential 1hour gain on the run.

hi rudolph,
i am OS in usa at the moment, so don't have the references with me, but i think its the jan issue of australian triathlete mag that compares bodyfat of top athletes in various sports.
also have a sports/medical encycolpaedia that points to cyclists typically being "fatter" (relative term) than runnners. surf a bit and you'll probably find similar stats.

remember fat is only really a prob for cyclists uphill whereas EVERY stride for a runner is a fight against gravity.

as far as cycling being better than running for fat burning.. i can't speak to that, but can't see why or how it would be.

Rudolf, cyclists at an elite level are generally not fatter (although I have not looked at stats on this). However, runners have more incentive to be light. Carrying an extra few kg on the run is much harder on the body (wrt impact) than on the bike, and further to that, the additional weight on the run is a disadvantage on the downhill, whereas it is not a disadvantage on the bike. I tend to end up a lot skinnier when running regularly than when cycling regularly.

Although not a 'magic bullet' solution...a sore back is often a symptom of poor bike set-up.

Discomfort on the bike - or after - is no fun and is not necessary. Most good coaches will be able to make corrections. Good luck.

C

quote:

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Originally posted by tank girl:
Rudolf, cyclists at an elite level are generally not fatter (although I have not looked at stats on this). However, runners have more incentive to be light. Carrying an extra few kg on the run is much harder on the body (wrt impact) than on the bike, and further to that, the additional weight on the run is a disadvantage on the downhill, whereas it is not a disadvantage on the bike. I tend to end up a lot skinnier when running regularly than when cycling regularly.

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ditto ...

(and let me tell you, running downhill with my weight is not a pleasant experience. On the other hand, cycling downhill ...)