thanks for all the tips !!

i might be doing a triathlon this weekend as well...not sure if i should do the long or short one.. do u people think shorter quicker ones will help with the long ones im doing in the protiviti series ???

alsooo... wat is "total immersion" swimming technique ?? what exactly do you do in it !!

Runhappy123, total immersion is a swim course designed by a group of people including Shane Gould. It teaches drills and techniques to help you relax and be more efficient in the water. A good swim coach in your local area will do the same if you ask for stroke correction classes. the terminology etc is the diffenrce but the drills are very similiar.

As for race distance do what you are confident to do, if this means a few shorter ones to start do it,

Good luck

as runners we tend to be a bit over-worried about the importance of the swim in a tri. remember it's the shortest section of the race.
in a mini it doesn't take a whole lot longer than the transitions.

(particularly when you think of the protiviti mini at sandringham last weekend that had about 800m total running in the transitions)

relax about the swim. don't worry if the next wave catches you. your bike and run legs are probably stronger and will give you plenty of chances to catch up some places.

olympic distance is the one where the swim really counts because of all the tri distances it's the one where the swim time is a significant percentage of your total race time.

for the mini almost any bike will do so long as you get some skinny slick tires onto it... by far and away the easiest/cheapest way to buy some speed.

i was just looking on the bayside triathlon club website at the training sessions. It says they are holding a TURBO SESSION :) does anyone know wat this means ?? :unsure:

perhaps eating a can of baked beans before a ride

Ah ... if you're just starting out runhappy, I think it safe to assume that you should probably avoid any session with the word "turbo" attached to it ;)

Most tri-clubs will run a variety of sessions per week - and just as a well-rounded run program will include intervals, speed sessions and hillwork, so too will the tri-club have a couple of harder sessions thrown in.

Maybe wait until you see something on their calendar with descriptions such as long-slow, cruisy ride, social or "easy" in their title

how did you go in the triathlon on the weekend Trit-trot and others? I had such a good time and cannot wait to do my 2nd triathlon!

I did really badly in the swim..I was scared and did not put my head in the water....I did well overall and was wondering if I got elastic shoelaces and wore no socks would this improve my transition time? it was just over 3 mins from swim to bike while I noticed others were half that time!

If I can just improve my swim by 30secs to 1 min and improve my transition time this would be great.

I also have heaps of questions about the bike leg. I have a very old heavy road bike...and did not 'lean down' on the lower handles...but kept more upright.......does this really waste time? How important is it to really pump up your tyres? (my have burst 1 day later so I think I overdid it!!)

thanks for any tips and advice.

no socks and elastic shoelaces are important for short tris.
for long tris then go for comfort.

re the tire pressures. go for the max written on the sidewall if we are talking roadbike tires. (maybe a smidge lower on a hot day as you don't want them to blow in the heat)
if they are mtn bike tires (and hopefully you have slick ones) then you can generally go say 5psi higher than max.
re the weight of the bike. on a beach road tri that isn't a really big deal as beach road has no significant hills where they do the tris.
weight is only a big factor on accceleration and uphill.

re riding in an aero position. imho tri bars don't offer a whole lot of advantage in short tris so long as your handlebar setup is down reasonably low to get you into a similar bent over position.

hope this helps

Hi downunder, not having all that much experience either I'm sure others may disagree, but I've found that over short distances your aerodynamic position would probably not make that much difference in terms of overall time. It'd much more important to learn better technique which will allow you to increase your speed without trashing your legs for the run.

In terms of having fully inflated tyres, I've found it does make a difference to your speed and the ease in which you ride, and it also decreases the risk of punctures too.

As for elastic laces and no socks, definately give it a go. A friend and I both did our first triathlon together, and he was a much better swimmer that me. He beat me in the swim by 50s but in transition he wore socks and normal shoe laces, I went elastics with no socks and was 47s faster. It's an easy way of saving quite a bit of time.

Dante

Really glad you enjoyed yourself so much downunder, and from the sounds of all the questions I would think it fair to say you're close to getting hooked! As you suggested however, where are all the other reports from the first timers on the weekend guys? We want to hear the feedback!

As to the questions, there's lots of topics you've raised there but I'll have a stab at a couple:

* elastic laces are *invaluable* in tris - in fact once you start using them, you might find (like myself) that you never use normal laces ever again. They're absolutely fantastic in transition - but as you could guess, they're equally fantastic for the bleary-eyed early-morning runs.

* Transitions themselves are almost as important as each of the 3 disciplines themselves, particularly for the shorter races. Ideally once you're used to racing a little more, the first trick is to teach yourself how to slip into your road shoes while they're alreday clipped in to the pedals. While you may be a little slow on the bike for the 20 seconds it takes to get your feet in the shoes, you will still be moving *forward* over the course, as opposed to sitting/standing in transition pulling on the shoes;

* Always survey the transition area once you've racked your bike - make note of where the bike is, and which direction you'll be entering T1 from the swim so you know exactly which row your bike is in and where it's positioned (walk to the entry point and practice a run to the bike). It's unfortunately highly amusing for spectators to watch swimmers running up and down the racks looking aimlessly for their bike - and it happens in EVERY race;

* Line your gear out in an orderly fashion next to, or on your bike and get used to doing it as a set routine. e.g. I put my sunglasses inside my helmet with the arms pointing out, so they go on first, helmet goes on, unrack your bike etc... Same with the run leg. Try putting your hat on top of your shoes etc...

* for anything up to a 10km run leg, I won't wear socks. You may develop a blister, but you won't notice it during the race (much) and blisters heal within a few days anyway. For distances over 10km, I start to consider the benefit of the comfort of socks against the time it takes to pull them on. It mainly depends on whether you're *racing* competitively, or just wanting to finish comfortably.

* last tip - unfortunately, yes - a good road bike will make a lot of difference with your enjoyment of the tris. This is not to say you need to go out and buy the latest italian carbon right away. A properly set-up road bike with aero-bars will make a world of difference. It's not really about the materials they're made of, or their weight etc... It's more about being comfortable riding a bike in an aerodynamic position so that you're in better shape for a run afterwards. If you're sitting fairly upright like you suggest, you'll be surprised at how much speed you're losing just from wind resistance. Next time you're riding down a hill, just free-wheel down and notice the difference you make when you alternatively crouch low on the bike and then sit-up. Apply the same principle to when you're riding on the flat and you'll understand why serious triathletes have tri-specific aerodynamic bikes.

Hope that helps a little - and congratulations again!

thanks for the advice so quick too !!

Ok, I will buy some elastic shoelaces...where? I live in the Eastern Suburbs of Melbourne.

Also, in regards to my bike, I think I will just get some new tyres... Rohan I was thnking of buying a lighter bike, but mine is fine for now and if you say weight is not really an issue on the flat beach road then...thanks!!

.......I have handlebars that curve down like most road bikes but I did not lean down on them...instead I 'sat up' onto the top handlebars....my hubby reckons this lost me time.. I just find it hard to see where I am going if down this low...but will try next time.

I will practice open water swimming this saturday in the bay.....boy do I need practice!

Swimming Advice – 101

I don’t know anything about the total immersion technique / theory but I do know a lot about swimming technique.

To swim well it will be a big help if you are already taller than 75% of your opposition. Regardless my advice will help you. Also buy a pool buoy too otherwise forget it. Also get some paddles too.

If you are shorter but have good power in your upper body switch to pool swimming and do butterfly – Petria Thomas and Susie Oneill.

Also get hold of the Athens Olympic final for 400m and 200m Freestyle and watch Thorpe and Hackett underwater – don’t let others tell you otherwise – Thorpe’s kick is handy but regardless in the first 300m of the 400m Thorpe hardly used his kick – yet Hackett does come at him hardest in the final 100m – I have watched this final with / for kids for coaching purposes like 40 times.

Must be VHS so you can do the freeze frame thing.

To swim well you must must swim in what I call the Front Quadrant. Start with this activity – get in your normal backyard pool – push off the wall underwater in as streamlined a body position as you can and glide underwater as far as you can – but with your arms down by your sides – palms down on your hips / thighs – see how far you go – you will sorta surprise yourself in how short you go – don’t stroke or kick at all. Now do that same thing with your arms out above your head, underwater – like when the swimmers dive off the blocks – so sandwich your head / ears between your upper biceps / hands together above your head – long lined and stream lined – go underwater again and push off – no kick or stroke and see how far you go – you will go heaps heaps further – only a metre or two short of a full lap – some can do a full lap – but the force of your push off the wall was the same – sure you are a touch more streamlined by your hands above your head but not to explain away the massive difference in how far you went in just one push off the wall – like double.

All of this is to demonstrate a lloonngg lliinnee. Thorpe and Hackett are very tall dudes – you would be surprised too – Lisbeth Lenton and Jodie Henry (for perfect kick see Jodie) are too. That kick is happening below the knee.

Racing yachts are long / thin and sleek, racing kayaks the same and rowing skiffs the same. K4’s are faster than K2’s – eights faster than fours – I know about the power factor but just bear with me.

OK so where am I going with all this – the vast vast majority of people swim with one arm in the opposite phase to the other arm – just go down to your normal swim centre and look at the hackers in the squads. In other words one arm is half way through pulling through underwater and the other arm is half way through its recovery in the air – how tall / long is the swimmer – well from the top of their head on down to their toes – BUT THAT ISN’T WHAT THORPE AND HACKETT DO!

They have their underwater arm and fingernails right stretched out in front / above them – fingernails pointing to the roof above them – outstretched and to emphasise a long line they have a slight roll to their body – freestyle swimming is a lateral stroke – drawing a line down through the centre of your body – so there is a SLIGHT roll happening around that axis. So if the left arm is the one outstretched above the head their lefthand side of the body should be slightly deeper than the right. As the recovery arm / right arm / right hands fingernails are making their recovery and as it is about entering the water at about forehead / top of head / ever so slightly above head THEN let the left hand BEGINS ITS PULL – thus the hands pass each other well forward and the average amount of time a long line is maintain is well above that that most hackers do cause their arms are diametrically opposed yet Thorpe and Hacketts are not – thus swimming in the front quadrant. Get the tape as I said – break it down frame by frame and just have a look at what Thorpe / Hackett is doing – it is exactly as I say – he / they have a big long powerful and full pull through but they maintain a long line and the arm / hand underwater doesn’t start its pull underwater phase till the other hands fingernails have gotten back up to forehead. Focus also on sorta this trunk upper body area and swimming in this front quadrant and sorta letting your hips go and this will make you a inch longer too.
Hope all this makes sense – check the vid as I said and you will go “oh yeah – I see now” don’t expect Thorpe and Hackett to tell the world.

Think of yourself as a pool table cue with arms and legs. Remember the long line in the chop of the surf / triathlon start. Think streamlined, long line – effort and energy. When I swim I treat my body as a unit – arms, legs, lungs, heart, head, etc – everybody working away in their respect areas – so to go faster I call on them to lift performance.

When you train – train 10 x 200m Freestyle – tens secs between each – make sure you are rooted at the end – graph results and slowly lower the boom that you are doing them on – for example where you might have been doing them on 3mins now do them on 2.55mins – again make sure you are rooted at the end – just cruising around in a squad can be good but can also be a complete waste of time and money – also I like training short course – 25m pool for long course competition over 50m. After the 200m’s do 10 x 100m again freestyle – but with a pool buoy between your upper thighs and using a large rubber band pull / tie your ankles together – again same theory 10 secs rest – graph results. Concentrate on long lining throughout the whole thing. When you are done your shoulders should be sore, you won’t be needing too much sex that night – don’t train consecutive days – CONCENTRATE THROUGHOUT – at end you will have swum 3km - done. Don’t train for three days prior to competing. Look at Thorpe’s eyes prior to the start of the 400m Freestyle in Athens – he was ready to die to achieve the required outcome – to win – you need to be the same – graphing results is good – that way your wife or whomever and yourself can see whether or not you are improving and trying hard enough – if not shoot yourself – the results are that visible. You have to get yourself in the mindframe on race day of as you leave your driveway at home you think to yourself – “the next time I see this driveway when I get home it will all be over”

BTW – you can train at this level of intensity for no more than three months prior to target race date, or you will kill yourself – if it is a Series you are in throttle things back.

PS – have a rum and coke the night before – it will help you sleep

Cheers – Dave Burgess

How much fun was it on the weekend? – I am definitely hooked! Having said that I am now hunting for a new bike!
The organisers were fantastic and a big thank you to all of the volunteers who were so friendly and cheered us on!
I actually did best (relatively!) on the swim leg but the difference between pool and open water swimming was massive! –So lots of practice required.
Hey Minersrun- thanks for putting me onto Hannah’s blog – of course I got hooked and had to read the whole lot! It’s heartening to see and read about people who are miles ahead of me in terms of speed and running experience but not so many miles that they are doing Ironmen comps! – it gives me “bite sized” challenges to work towards.
I just find that I get so scared that I’m not going to be able to finish anything be it the tri or a fun run and that I am too conservative in terms of using my energy. Do you think that I will get better at judging the level of intensity with experience, or do I need to “go for it” one time and see whether I blow up or not? –I’m not sure. What does everyone think?

Hey trit-trot! Great to see you had such a fantastic time too - and I'm glad Hannah's blog helped you a little. She makes a great account of a first-timer's experience.

As to the intensity you take during each leg, it's something that you learn over time - but still need to adjust depending on the length of hte race, the conditions etc... Even still, it's not something you could truly say you master either. You will definitely get better at judging your ability to control the pace in each leg - but dare I say it, I don't think you will ever finish a triathlon and think "hey, I got the balance exactly right for all 3 legs" I never have ...

And rohan - thanks for picking up on that. You're 100% correct that different techniques are required for different distance races. For the mini-tris, the quickest way through T1 & T2 is probably more important than each of the 3 legs themselves!

... and yes, the slipping into the shoes on the bike takes a good while to master - and IMO is only really a good advantage for the middle distance events such as sprints and olympic. Shorter than that, and I agree you can get away with running shoes for both legs - longer than olympic distance (or at least longer than long course) and you can generally take the time to put on cycling shoes in T1.

The way to get the best advantage from this technique is to wait until you hit a downhill, and *then* put your feet in so you don't lose much bike speed. If you watch Noosa for example, Craig Walton and the other elites don't bother slipping into their shoes until 1-1.5km into the bike leg near that first gentle downhill.

wow...this is great...thanks everyone for taking the time to post your experiences and advice...very much appreciated. thanks Chilliman for a place for getting the shoelaces!

Minesrun...yes, I am getting hooked...like I did to running 5 years ago and now after several half marathons and 3 full marathons (and a baby in between) I was ready for something a bit different, if only for the summer months. Your advice is great as I know you are a wonderful triathlete yourself!

David D.... thanks for your time in writing about the swim...I have a lot to learn, despite the fact that I can swim 2kms in the pool...didn't help my nerves and technique is terrible....I can only improve!

Rohan......very impressive...winning twice already.......what are your strong legs...all of them ???

I have seemed to have done well in the cycling leg (10th overall) and the run leg (2nd overall) despite only having done one brick session prior. I think I placed 17th or 18th overall in the women out of 301.......now to work on that swim!!!.......

:o gee downunder - many thanks, but perhaps you didn't read the signature under my username the first time ;)

thanks downunder,
but the standard in the minis is lower than the sprint distance.
if i'd been in the sprint tris i would've been whipped.
last mini i have stats for i was 20th overall in the swim, 2nd on the bike, 2nd on the run, resulting in 1st overall.
last weekend i stepped up to half ironman to finish 335 out of 712 finishers... so it puts those mini tri wins into perspective!

hey guys I still think you are amazing triathletes !! I remember when I won my first running trophy in a 5km race - it was the sunset series one at Melbourne Zoo....I was SO proud of myself despite the fact that my time was not really competitive....I was the best on the day!

and so were you Rohan! Minersrun, I have read some of your training and you are so motivated and have so much passion for your sport. This is great......I feel like this too.

I HOPE to go open water swimming tomorrow...weather today in Melbs however is not great.

hi downunder,
don't go swimming near drains after last nights rain... it can make you sick...

David, have you ever watched that Thorpie dvd that came out a couple of years back? If so, can you get anything from it or is it more biographical?

JUST TO CONFUSE YOU MORE

Yurtie

I am sorry I have never seen the Thorpie DVD.
I will say one thing though - learning to swim like the above is incredibly incredibly difficult - cause when you are learning it it feels well.....wrong.

Another amazing thing bout Hackett and Thorpe is the underwater elbow is not very deep by comparison to everyone else.

Thorpe and Hackett get their arm down their body with the elbow bent. If you look from the deck or even better from above, their hands follow a straight line which is in contradiction to earlier swimming technique models (so called S-shaped stroke pattern). It is not important to draw an "S" as told by many coaches, rather you should try to hold onto a spot in the water (anchor point) – this is incredibly difficult - ty it. I am slowly trying to morph my swimming style to theirs.

Super amazing thing – cause I have studied these two for like hours and hours – in order to try to teach kids – it is that ugly parent thing spose - Hackett needs 33 strokes for 50m Freestyle, Thorpe only 28. Because both swimmers swim at pretty much the same speed this means that Thorpe can swim much farther per stroke cycle, or to put it another way: he is even more efficient (less resistance and / or more propulsion). Thorpe splashes less when he enters his arms, his chest and hips remain more constantly in a horizontal position throughout the whole stroke cycle, and after push-offs he glides better. He starts his catch when his upper body is beyond the 5 m mark (practically no kick!). In contrast, Hackett starts his stroke when the fingertips reach the 5 m mark. The question arises why Thorpe does not kick much after the push-off, although this guy has something close to flippers on the ends of his legs. Again this is in stark contrast to what many coaches tell you, namely, kicking wildly after push-off. Could it be that Thorpe wishes to save energy by not kicking much, or because he perceives little advantage in trading lots of energy for just a small increase in speed, or because he does not achieve additional speed as a result of kicking whilst he is moving at a faster-than-swimming speed (or maybe it even slows him down some).

Finally, I want to mention that not all world elite swimmers do this form of swimming. Many swimmers, mostly sprinters, use a rotary like armstroke – Inga DeBruin for example – but I tend to feel they are moving to what Thorpe and Hackett are doing.

Swimming technique is continuously improving worldwide, and the focus of training principles changes over time. In the 1970s and 1980s the centre of interest was on physical factors and conditioning, swimming technique came only second in most teams. With the beginning of the 1990s aspects of swimming technique became more important (again). The swimming technique that I wrote about above and basic physical, biomechanical, and cognitive models, respectively, will be subject to scrutiny and improvement. They represent state-of-the-art freestyle swimming.

Cheers Dave Burgess

hey dave b,
thanks for all that analysis of swim technique.
actually makes me interested to get down to the pool today and experiment.
normally i find swimming in a pool boring as hell, but now i have some things to play with!

Increasing your body length, by leaving your arm out to glide longer, reduces drag. Kicking lots increases drag, so it's not as good a way of increasing your speed. A good kick is timed perfectly and doesn't produces the nasty turbulent effect. Get some Total Immersion books or videos. It feels pretty natural.

Dave, I had a go at this in the pool this morning. It's not really that difficult to do as long as you concentrate. I have a stright pull anyway rather than an s curve so maybe it was easier.

But I found three things, firstly, you need to keep kicking so that your body is in the best alignment for maximum glide time.

Secondly, it is really hard to get good rotation going. Unless I forced it, I found that I was very square on in the water which I imagine would give less reach.

Lastly, it gives you a bloody good workout. I reckon I could accomodate it into drill sets but I can't imagine swimming 4000m like that, let alone 15 000 meters. Still it was enjoyable.

I just want to say thanks for posting your thoughts and advice about swimming David....I have read over and over your post as well as reading the Total Immersion Book in order to improve my technique. I have started doing triathlons and love it, but suffered in my first open water swim...in fact, I did not even put my head under water!

I have been doing some practice drills in the local pool. A good friend/swimmer/triathlete has told me to practice what he calls 'chicken arms' as he thinks I straighten out too much both above and below the water. I have also been trying to 'press down my upper body' or front quandrant as you call it? This has seemed to help...however now I am confused about how to use the arm that is underwater... I usually have a very straight arm that seems to do an almost 360 degree circle... so I started to bend it more and then bring it across my body.....now I think this is wrong also.

This is so technical compared to running! I have inquired about adult swim /stroke correction sessions.......

is it also true that skinny/no broad shoulder people (like me) have a disadvantage in the water?