Hello All

As promised - here is our new topic post.

Muzman is doing this and hopefully Neavesy, anyone else want to join us?

Unless I counted wrong, it is 24 weeks to race day from Sunday 9 June, so I am starting my official 24 week program on Monday 11 June (public holiday, good day to start I think) after a month off training.

My new Cervelo is ready for some long rides! Can't wait to get started.

I am still looking at competiting in the Decmeber ironman.

Runloveit, I still think we should see who can come up with a name for the Race (instead of Busselton Ironman)??

24 weeks is that it????? God Damm!!!! Sounds so close when you say it in weeks.

** Just had a quick look at Webpage, already 213 confirmed entrants **

Hey there Runitloveit, and G'Day to Neavesy (who I haven't met yet)

Yeah I'm there for my first IM, and when RILI puts it in weeks, it does seem really close!

My training program is 21 weeks, but that's not including my proposed base work which fires up in a fortnight (also after a month off training. Oh, my aching bod!)

No new bike for me, but after I have done some long long rides this year, I may have to invest in a new saddle. New tyres, new saddlewing, maybe some new wheels ....

Somebody stop me, I have to be able to afford to enter the damn thing!

BTW Runitloveit, I don't envy you firing up your swim training in your part of the world. Brrrrr!!!

Go for it Muzman, nothing like new gear as reward/motivation. My condition to myself for buying the new bike is that it is 'for ironman'.

Yep, swimming during Canberra winter sucks, and let me tell you running and cycling during winter can be pretty tough as well.

The trick is not to think about it when the alarm goes off at 5.30am and it is pitch dark....it helps to get dressed while still in bed before getting up (it can be done - I set up my clothes beside the bed!!)

I rely on my trusty ugg boots for the trip between the pool and the car, plus a big polar fleece jacket, beanie and gloves - fashionable I am not, but at least I don't freeze.

Minus 3 this morning.....

Hard to know what is worse - training over winter or having to do it over summer in the sweltering heat. Will mean I need to do quite a bit of work on the windtrainer because it is just too dark and cold to get out on the roads.

Will be relying on you all to keep me motivated during the cold months (which in Canberra can last until November)!

Still trying to work out how to attach my cleats to my ugg boots for those chilly winter morning rides ...

It was a bone chilling 12 degrees here this morning at 5am. If this keeps up I may have to move my swim sessions indoors. Hehehe.

if it helps, i did imoz on a $400- second hand bike, but it did get upgrades in the comfort areas. saddle, extra drink cages and aerobars. VERY helpful on the rides over 140km.

good luck to y'all

Thanks Rohan

Should have mentioned that I am very attached to my big yellow Felt , and even if I could afford it, I probably wouldn't get a new bike, but shopping for the extras is always fun. In fact, it's the fourth discipline!

It also hasn't been said yet, but Runitloveit and I are Ironvirgins. What about you, Neavesy?

Any more doing their first IM??

Having done a couple of Busselton's Muzman I can give you the tip, use your hometrainer plenty.
1. Its safer during winter
2. Its warmer
3. You can control your efforts better
4. Riding the Busselton course is very similar to sitting on your hometrainer for 5hrs except there are a few turns on the course........ read it is FLAT.

It is a great race and venue, wish i could join you but family life won't permit it this year.

Thanks B+, I appreciate all and any tips on Busso and first Ironman.

I have heard the course is very very flat and the trainer will probably get a workout anyway becasue there are significant roadworks going on all over my long ride courses up here, and no end in sight.

Keep the hints and tips coming!

or of course, 6 or 7 or 8 hours for the mortals

Hi Folks,

Good luck for Brusso this year I wish I was joining you too it is really a race I want to do but I need to get the family onboard!

Don't worry about the yellow Felt Muzman its a speed machine! However, instead of a new bike how about a nice set of race wheels?? Not AS expensive and will add some kick to your bike on those flats!

Cheers,

Danny

colin seems to have undertaken ironman training.
250km per week on the bike , asking questions about swimming etc.
is busso the one he's training for.

Hi Danny

I'm actually really happy with my racewheels but it's TYRES I need to look at. Some nice, low profile, hi pressure coloured jobbies perhaps. I thought about singles for perhaps ten seconds because a friend of mine who I respect as an Ironman swears by them. But they're not for everyone.

BTW Runitloveit and others, I am interested to find out more about your training programs - where did you find them, how long, what sort of hours pw do they max at? I got mine from an American website, aimed specifically at first time Ironmen (but who don't want to scrape in under 17hrs) and it's 20 weeks (not counting initial base).

Oh. My. God.

I just paid my entry fee (I always do this with big events so I feel "committed").

Guess there is no turning back now! Training starts next week, but in the meantime I have been doing a bit of swimming with a lot of drills to do some work on my body position, and to get used to swimming again!

Muzman - my trainer writes my programs - I only get them 2 weeks in advance, so I am not sure what the big weeks look like yet. She knows me pretty well, so her programs work for me, but I also see how I feel and I do tweak it occasionally if I am feeling good or feeling tired. I think it is basically 3 weeks build 1 week recovery, plus an event every month to practice all that race day stuff.

I'm running the conti force/attack pairing, and reckon they're some of the best HP tyres around (and they come in all colour combinations).

However, I also notice these schmick new conti GP 4000s with the silver labelling are starting to take over in the style stakes

Firstly, Muzman all things being equal up to December the Busselton Ironman will be my first. Really looking forward to it and racing against my old man who has completed it 2 times now.

As for a few of the other topics regarding the Busselton Ironman; New Bike V New Accesories; I ride a Lear Sport ($1000) and this bike rides really well but looks very cheap and old so i am doing the next best thing and getting it Spray Painted in a mint looking "Orange Pearl" Hot looking paint job which changes colour when looked at different angles. Then hopefully get some NEW wheels to finish the job off.

Training on Wind Trainer; I have actually bought a Spin Bike to help with my indoor training, Due to work I am always free when it is dark outside, so going to try the Spin Bike.

Training Program; I Basically made mine up myself, with a lot of listening when people talk about there own training programs and a little bit of common sense. Like most I only use mine as a guide, if I am feeling great I will lift intensity or distance but if feeling avg will bakc off and just cruise through session.

Hope this catches me up on the BSN Ironman subject.

Thanks Miners

Those look like seriously nice tyres - I love the Continentals. Have to see what the bank account holds though! As usual.

Neavesy, great to know that I'll be in good company in my first IM.

One consolation is that the days start to get longer after next week, and it's not such a strain trying to squeeze the training into the available daylight hours. I'm still going to have to get a bit creative with my work hours, because I start early as a rule.

I'm starting to miss summer ...

Hi Muzman,

I miss summer too - glad to hear the days are getting longer I just can't wait until they get warmer - it was only 4 degrees in Newcastle this morning!

Cheers,

Danny

Hey Danny - last night at running training it was 6C, and this morning it was minus three! When I trained at lunch today is was 4 degrees, so just be glad you ain't down here in Canberra training because man it is cold (and dark).

Muzman - I used Continental for the half, and they certainly made me feel faster!!

Ah yes, but did they look cool at the same time?

Hi runitloveit,

I feel for you! That is cold - I can't compair with temps like that!

Good luck with your training.

Hey Muzman, I use Vittoria singles and they are fast! Just to add another dimension to your choice!

Cheers,

Danny

You can never play "how cold is it" with someone from Canberra - we win every time!! This morning it was 2C, windy and sleeting rain.

There is no way you could run in it without getting extremely wet, risking hypothermia and very soggy shoes so I ditched my run session and came to work instead - will have to switch tomorrow's windtrainer session for tonight and then hopefully run tomorrow if the weather picks up.

I find this the most difficult part of training - what to do when you just can't get a session done - do you try to squeeze it in the next day, swap around or just let it go? I am loathed not to do what is on my program (as long as I am physically well and able). But mornings like this when the weather beats you makes it very hard.

I was reading about having "key" sessions that you do not miss, and then some other training sessions become more flexible.

thoughts?

Runitloveit, on key sessions I agree there a few that you must do regularly and I would put these in order of priority as
1 Weekend long bike run brick session
2 weekend long bike run brick session
3 weekend long bike run brick session build to 200k with efforts and run build to 2hrs off bike with mid run race pace effort
1, 2, & 3 YES it is that important!
4 mid week quality medium building to long run at race pace 90min - 3hrs+
5 A swim set with long intervals building to 5k set. e.g 8x400m build to 2x2k at race pace.
6 Open water swim in wetsuit once the weather permits.

All other training should then fit in around you life and should be adjusted based on how you are responding and recovering to the above key sessions.

As for the temperature you can only claim a lower temp win if you actually go out and train in it......... Although I must admit Cnaberra is F@#$^&ing cold around this time of year.

Goodl uck with your training and train safe

I am personally happy I live in WA, I think the coldest it is here is around 5C and that is one of the clod days, so good luck to you all in the eastern states.

On a different subject, With my BSN Ironman training, I will have limited time to train during winter due to team sports (Hockey). So I was wondering if I will need to do an long steady run session or just do them after a bike (Brick Session) I have planned at the moment to do some speed sessions plus a long run plus a birck session but schedule looks very tight, so was thinking would it make much difference if I dropped my long run and just did Brick Sessions? Any Thoughts?

Neavesy, why don't you post a generic weeks training scedule and some of us may be able to give you a bit better advice.

As to your question, yes you can get by on the brick only session but you better be willing to run looooong off the bike

I have attached a copy of my training schedule, hope it works.

Most of my Ride Sessions will be hill sessions, so wont have to do huge distance to get the same work out.

Cheers

Hi I'm a newby triathlete, but would really like to run the marathon leg of the Busso IM 07

So if anyone outthere needs a team member. I'm a female vet with 2years running and am doing Perth Marathon in 3 weeks as my 1st. Each of my 4 half's have shown improvement with freo last weekend being 1hr42.34

I would be aiming for a time of 3hours 50min (and to date have acheived all my running targets )

Neavesy, after looking at your blueprint I would make the following comments and suggestions.

1. You need to swim further in at least 2 sesions per week. I would be looking to swim at least 3.5-4.5km in a session with long intervals mixed with some shorter faster than race pace efforts.

2. In June-September I would suggest doing your long run on the Wednesday rather than the Friday as this will have less effect on your hockey and also have you backing up mid week to run long slightly more fatiqued from Tuesday.
You also have a lot of "run int" in your program. for Ironman you need much more "run steady" as this is the way the race plays out. I would think that if you put in at hockey training and maybe do a little extra after if needed this should be plenty for the season and then you can do more steady runs.

3. I would suggest you run off the long bike every time you do it. 10-15km is plenty and occasionally take it to 20km. Your current brick sessions look to short for me from the bike side as you are not even riding half the race distance, even if it is a hilly course time on the bike is important. By the way as Bussellton is flat as a tack you would also be better off training in a time trial position and doing specific race pace efforts to adapt to the very constant position your body will need to be in for long periods on race day. If you get your gering and cadance right these will work you just as hard as hill work.

Hope this helps in some way

B+ I will take your advice on board. Thanks for the tips.

Have any other CR Members got the training program worked out that would be happy to post it online?

I would be interested in seeing what other members do to prepare?

Also, what is everyone's thoughts on Taper/ing; I find I feel really sluggish and slow when ever I have tapered, I didn't taper at all for the Busselton HIM and felt good so not sure if I will taper for Ironman.

Thanks

Unlike Runitloveit, I don't need to pay my entry fee to feel committed to an event - I just need to tell a couple of dozen people I'm doing it, then I can't back out

It's also amazing how motivated I became as soon as I booked and paid for my accommodation in Busso. I believe there's not a lot left in town, if anyone hasn't yet organised theirs.

Neavesy, I find taper to be a pain in the butt also, but there's no way I wouldn't do it. The sluggishness is normal as the glycogen in your muscle fibres absorbs water and you end up feeling like a big fat water balloon. The longer the event, the harder it is to let go of your mileage and cut back. Ironmen are notorious non-taperer(er)s.

Look at it this way - you need all your energy on race day. Why waste it in the weeks leading up to the event? Imagine yourself slowly filling up with that energy, ready to unleash it on the big day. Works for me. Any other tips to get over the taper blues?

Programs are a very individual thing and mine are based on a 6 week training cycle so i cannot post a specific block of training as it would have little relevance in the bigger picture and may well give a false sense of what I did in preparing for Ironman in the past, but i will give you a weekly structure that works very well for me and many athletes like me who have a full time job and family and need to fit training in around this without causing to much stress at home or work.

MORNING......................................AFTERNOON
Monday swim 90minutes 3-4.5km........strength & conditioning set or off
Tuesday ride 90min-2hrs hill reps.........tempo run 11-21km
Wednesday swim 90min 3-4.5km aerobic...long run 90min - 3hrs.30min
Thursday ride 90min-2hrs intervals........run easy or off
Friday swim 90min 3-5km..................off
Saturday brick session long bike 3-6hrs run off bike 30min - 2hrs
Sunday off or easy swim and strength and conditioning set

Some people will do their long stuff Sunday instead of Saturday.

As for tapering; I actually taper differently to many people. i start about 3 weeks out and cut my mileage/duration back by about 30%. I keep my intensity up at race pace in key session and I try to race at least once during the 3 week taper but prefarable twice. This lets me get a gauge of where I am actually at despite hoe I may feel, it also gets everything firing and allows me to test out all my race gear prior to the big race. I would normally get in a club race and with Busellton was lucky enoughto have the Nepean triathlon on the week end before it each year. I have plenty of recovery between races so that I am constantly feeling fresher and jumping around with energy.
My taper normally finishes the Wednesday before the race and I pick up my training a bit in the days before the race nothing to long or too hard but still with intensisty of race pace and this helps settle nerves and keeps me loose and ready to go.

SWIM TIP = practice breathing to your right a lot as all your markers i.e. the Jetty will be on this side all swim.

Thanks B+, that's great.

It looks a lot like my schedule except I have 4 week cycles (3 up, 1 down) and I think it will work in well with my job after I sweet-talk the boss a bit. The only concern I have is fitting in my long run during the week. Do you give any thought to doing long run/long ride on Sat/Sun, or is it too much to cope with?

I am totally with you re racing during taper because it keeps your mind off the actual taper and, as you say, gives you a good gauge. I am actually doing Nepean Tri this year and it is on exactly a week before I fly out for WA.

Another thing guys - I was a 19-time volunteer at Ironman Oz in Forster, and we vollies always loved it when the athletes came to our thankyou BBQ on the Tuesday after the race. That's why I am staying in Busso an extra day - to make an appearance with the shoe on the other foot and have the chance to thank those wonderful people in person for all they do. It's totally a buzz for the athletes - not just the elites mind, but ANYONE with a finisher shirt on - to be mobbed by kids looking for an autograph or photo with you. If you can, consider staying for it - it will mean a lot to the peple who help us get through the day.

I think I may be planning this event backasswards ...

Muzman, depending on your time constraints on the weekends, I would stick with my recomendation to do a long bike/run brick session on the Saturday or Sunday, with Saturday being better.
When I say long it is for both legs so with race race pace efforts in these days.
eg. working on your 4 week cycle
week 1 ride 140km or 5hrs and run 1hr or 12-14km off the bike
week 2 ride 150km or 5hrs30 and run 1hr15 or 14-16km off the bike
week 3 ride 170km or 6hrs30 and run 1hr30 or 15-21km off bike
week 4 ride 120km or 4hrs with last 1hr(35km) at race pace and run 2hrs or 20-30km off the bike
and so on
This is the key to Ironman as you must run off the bike.
If however time does not allow such a long day then cut the bike time/mileage by half and up the intensity a bit but run the same time/distance each week as above for example. But I would strongly urge you to get at least a fortnightly session like this long one done, at least to have a better day at the race.
the other option which many people do is Long bike 4-7hrs or 120 - 200km Saturday and a short run 5km off the bike.
Sunday a long run 90min-3hr+
This works too but many athletes still come undone on race day due to no recovery between bike and run in the race versus a 16hr break each time in training.
Many observers put fast run times in Ironman down to the person being a "naturally" good runner and I too believed this many years ago, but I am now of the firm belief that the fast run times are due to better race preperation in training.
Once I started running longer off my long bike I knocked a total of 50 minutes off my run time from a 4hr09min to a 3hr18min.
The more natural runners can actually do less of this type of training and still perform well where as the less gifted must be better prepared to perform to their potential forthat year.

Train Safe

Quick Thanks to everyone (mostly B+) there are some great tips getting talked about on this Thread and im sure im not the only one learning alot.

On a different part of my training; I have just purchased a Spin Bike and am going to start using this as part of my Bike sessions (just cant drag my self out doors at the moment). I have heard that Spinervals are a popular DVD session for SpinBikes, does any one have any other recommendations? or idea's?

Thanks B+ for those scheduling tips, and the commonsense advice on bricks. I don't foresee any problem fitting my weekend schedule in, but work will have to be a bit 'athlete friendly' during the week when my training peaks - at least until the days get longer. The way my schedule now comes together leaves me Sundays available for Club races in the season, although bigger races are a fair way away from where I live and I usually use Saturday to travel. No matter - I'll work it out.

Neavesy, I have always intended to give those Spinervals DVDs a whirl, with my bike on the trainer, but what I really really want is a CompuTrainer. Mmmmm, Computrainer!

Hi Neavesy,

Spinervals are great training tools. Keep an eye out for Spinervals 5.0 Mental Toughness (lasts for 1.5 hrs), Spinervals 9.0 Have Mercy (2 hours) and 13.0 Tough Love (3 hours!).

I have these and use them in my training for longer distances and can say that they are all challenging workouts.

Another thing to note is they say (don't quite know who 'they' are but happy to take this info!) that time on the trainer is worth about 1.5 times the amount on the road. The rationale is that you don't ever stop spinning (eg like you can on down hills).

I also use the Spinervals Aerobic Base Building series in the winter and find they keep you nice and sharp and in season also use the Time Trial one as it has some great tempo sessions designed to increase your aerobic threshold.

I got all mine from Everest Sports http://www.everestsports.com.au/

Good luck!

Danny

Thanks Danny, Sounds like they are the way to go; Have Mercy and Tough Love sound catchy. Thanks

Hi Neavsey,

No problems - yeah Coach Troy (the Spinervals guy!) has a knack for naming his training sessions. But let me tell you they are pretty close to how you will feel when you are finished.

He hasn't done one called 'Knackered!' yet but I don't think its in the American vocab.

Good luck with these I can only speak from my experience with them but they have made me a much better and stronger cyclist.

Cheers,

Danny

Glad you canuse some of the tips I have passed on Boys, always happy to put my 2 cents in.

Spinervals are a good option and help to break up the boredom on the home trainer. I have also heard the quote Danny about the home trainer being worth 1.5 times the time on the road. I disagree with this qoute however from personal experience, I would say its about the same.
In 2004 I trained almost exclusively on my Ergo through winter to prepare for Busellton. I did my mid week sessions on it for 11/2 to 2 hours and my Saturday long ride was done on it for 4-5hrs (I did about 15 long rides) Then as the weather got a bit better I started doing my long rides out around Penrith Lakes which is a flat 5km loop and was doing 180km TT efforts out there and riding between 5.05 & 5.15 depending on my fatigue level. In the race I rode 5.06 so I feel that they all were aout equal. The huge advantage of riding the home trainer for Busso is that you learn to concentrate and to keep pedaling for the actual time you think you will be racing the bike for.
**Disclaimer = I had a background of long bike miles prior to the winter of h/t so build up slowly if you try this option**
Muzman, I am not sure of your personal set up but one thing I did to still get Saturday done if the lead in race was a shorter race with no real siginficance to me, was to ride towards my destination and have my lovely wife pick me up on her way through a few hours later. This way I didn't miss out on key ride and still raced. I do however recomend having Saturday as a rest day before most longer/important races so you can give the race a decent hit out to see where your training is up to, besides we train so hard for so long that we should enjoy the races we do do and give them our best shot.

Tip when riding Busso get used to changing gears and standing up often i.e. every time after you eat or drink to give your body some movement OR ELSE you will get off and feel like a cripple trying to run.

My thoughts on the windtrainer is that, for me, it really helped with that flat course in Busselton.

Getting down on the tri-bars and just pedalling really translated to what it was like on the Busselton course. I wanted a steady ride (90rpm HR at 80-85% which gave me an average of 30k an hour). Remember I am just starting out so still building my fitness as well - some of you may be alot faster/stronger on the bike. Practicing holding this 'race pace' on the windtrainer really helped me.

My personal trainer writes my windtrainer programs for me - they usually include spinning intervals at 100-120rpm, heart rate sets, standing climbs, one leg drills etc. I also use the HR monitor while on the bike (both windtrainer and on the road).

But I have heard good things about Spintervals as well.


Also, I thinked the windtrainer sessions helped with the mental concentration required for the bike - that in itself was quite fatiguing - and especially when combined with the physical endurance required.

I also practiced standing up, stretching, eating and drinking while pedalling (both on the windtrainer and out on the road).

I built up to 90-120 minutes on the windtrainer (mid week ride), and 4 hours on the long ride for the 1/2 ironman (Sunday ride) followed by a run off the bike, so I imagine my ironman training will be build from this.

In Canberra it is also too damn cold somedays to go out on the bike, so setting up the windtrainer and tuning into Foxtel is a nice alternative!

Finally got onto the Everest Films website today, A couple of those Spinervals look like pretty tough training sessions, I really like the sound of "Tough Love", sounds like alot of pain so in turn should get good results back.

On a different subject again, I will not be racing Busselton Ironman anymore in 2007, I still have plans to do a few Ironmans in my life and at my age (24) I have plenty of time to get them done. Unfortunatley due to work commitments (owning my own Business) I dont have the time to train until possible October or later. I have been trying to fit in training over past 6 weeks but have just succesfully ran myself into ground through lack of sleep. So out of respect for the Ironman Distance I am not going to try and train for it in 2 months if my time free's up in october because that can't be good for any one's health, I am going to continue to train as I enjoy the sessions but only when I can fit them in.

Hopefully I will chase up a few other local athletes who haven't had time to train and would still like to compete in a way and put to gether a Team for the race.

So good luck to everyone on there training sessions and race.

Cheers

Cheers

Only just saw this. Yes rohan, you've picked up on the IM intentions, but it probably won't be Busso. Intend to do the HIM Port and then the IM Port.

The 250km/wk is history now and doing a bit more, but especially have increased the long ride. Did 110km (ave 32) on Saturday and a leisurely 45km yesterday after a night at SMC dinner,nightclub and more drinks at home.

Definitley feeling the benefits of the new bike now.

ps.... don't expose me ok, know what I mean..nudge , nudge

Sorry to hear you won't be joining us in the big challenge, Neavesy, but I hope you make it there in a team, mate.

Let us know and we will try to catch up in person while there.

My pre-training started today and I feel a bit .... fat!

Hey Neavesy

Sorry to hear that you won't be joining us, but it sounds like you have made a sensible decision based on your circumstances.

I know two girls who are keen to make up a team - but they need a swimmer. Let me know if you are keen for the swim leg. They are just doing it for the experience - no time goals.

I'm doing my cycling with the girl who wants to do the cycle leg and she has a runner sorted out.

COLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN........... Mate coming over to the truely dark side...WOW next thing you will be flicked as a moderator and Bluedog won't talk to you (maybe not so bad ) and all your running buddies will brush you because you ride a bike, shave your legs and wear lycra

Great to see you having a crack at a different challenge. wishing you the best of success.
If you want to ask a question or two feel free as I am always happy to give my 2c worth.

runloveit, I have asked a few locals/family about team race but if they fall through I will keep your offer in mind. Dont mind doing the swim, not the best swimmer but will do it in around 1hr 10mins. Cheers

Now if only we can limit him to his 2c worth

Hi guys. Will be there also. Can't wait. I have some matters to rectify from last time

OK Neavesy - stay in touch about it. If you hear of anyone wanting to do the swim can you let me know - thanks

Hey Plazbot - welcome on board!!

OK, so in the past three days I have run in minus 3 degree weather, cycled in minus 2 degrees and tonight we ran in the rain. Staying devoted to the training!

Owie70, for a person who has only made his 3rd ever post**, you obviously felt it worth one of them being a dig at me.

Now something about experience vs lack of experience:

Let me tell you that I know very little about cycling, even less about swimming and absolutely nothing about doing all three. But one thing I know is that if I will be successful, possibly even a Kona spot, it will be because I am out there asking questions about it, listening, taking advice and trying things out.

The very same things that made me fairly successful at running about 20 yrs ago. So I feel now quite confident now that I have more than 2c of experience in running. You won't see me telling experienced people how to train for a triathlon etc, but that's pretty much what one gets from relative novices in running.

I am grateful though for the input of experienced triathletes such as B+, and if he is willing to part with his tricks of the trade, then I am happy to soak them up, try them and find what works for me.

Just a little trick for young players.

**ps , perhaps I am being a bit paranoid, just noted that both your other two posts were also digs at other posters. Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute here? Go for it.