I'm currently flirting with the idea of throwing some Tri's into the mix with a possible HIM in the next year, it's not yet a relationship more furtive glances across the room. Problem is if this relationship blossoms I have no idea where to start. But given I don't have a bike ATM I guess swimming will have to be it (given I can run OK). So here goes with a stupid question

The question is how do you train for swimming? Whenever I used to go for a swim it would be swim 200m, stop, breathe repeat ad nauseum (which wasn't really that far). I don't think this is the best way - but I see so many people doing it. Should I aim for consistent laps without stopping? Should it be just like when youu start running, slow and steady to build up the stamina? Or is the stop breathe repeat technique going to give results? Thanks for any insights that may come through

cheers
IHS

I can't say what the best method would be, especially to build up to HIM swim, but I got a big benefit out of doing a stroke correction session last week. I would recommend something like that, form being very important for swimming efficiently.

Go to Warringah Aquatic Centre, Mon or Wed or Fri 7am to 8am for a squad session.
Or try the Masters club, Wed 7:30pm or Sun morning, if you're old enough.
I've just got back into swimimg after a long break.
Just like runnning, it's easier in a group.

Like running, swimming laps at the same pace for ages will be good, but not great.

You need to throw in some variety and mix it up with drills, fast laps, kick-boards, pull-buoys etc.

I've heard that swimming in squads/groups makes it all a lot easier and less boring but I haven't done much of that myself (which is probably why my swimming is still my weakest out of the three).

Join a squad, Aunty K, Wildthing and I go to one at Homebush which is awesome and specifically for tri training. PM me if you are interested, it is not close to Dee Why but would be worth the trip Alternatively, check with your local pool for squad sessions. You will push yourself way harder in a squad than on your own, I know I do but then again, I am lazy

Sunset has it nailed, IHS.

I approach my swim training the same as my run (and bike) training. ie, one session a week of intervals, one of tempo and one of LSD.

Early season stuff incorporates more drills with kickboard, pull buoy and stroke drills, just to get the cobwebs off my stroke, but a swim session is a bit more structured than a run in that you should have very definable warm-up (incl drills) main set (whatever) and cool down (usualy swimming genty).

There are a myriad of books out there which detail triathlon swim training, and how to do the drills and how to build to your chosen event.

I favour a book I found called "Triathlon Training basics" by Gale Bernhardt, which is not too technical and has a training program over 10 weeks for any distance from enticer to Oly.

When you graduate to HIM, hit the Web and there are plenty.

The other good bit of advice here from TynoMite is to get some stroke correction with a swimming coach. Even a couple of lessons will make swimming easier and more efficient for you, even if you don't feel like joining a squad. I tried squad, but really prefer to do my own thing.

Good luck with it!

M

Thanks for the replies,

Never thought of either squad or stroke correction! I was always just a throw the arms around slap the water and move forward kinda guy . Appreciate your advice

Cheers
IHS

Swimming is different to running or riding in that correct technique makes a massive difference. It may not make you much faster, but can make you much more efficient, so when you hit the bike you are a lot fresher. So swimming with a squad is worthwhile because you gte the benefit of a coach.

Oh man Mouse & NTR, I just had a look at your blog and saw photos of runners on the tracks I run on around Meadowbank! That was a trip...

+ 1 for homebush squads. My wife and I also swim this squad but do not know the ID of Mouse just yet ;-)

Shot'is

Ha - that's because I am in sekrit training

I am not sure of your identity yet, I am thinking there are 2 options - does your wife swim in the fast lane or the girls lane (with me!). I should be a detective...

I like the squad idea, it's something I've been meaning to do for the last couple of years... procrastination much?

The pool at Manly Leagues Club in Brooky probably has a squad or stroke correction lessons and that's pretty close to you, otherwise I know that Manly pool definitely has a squad.

Hey another thing that's definitely worth doing if you're considering triathlons is to get into some of the ocean swims on the northern beaches in summer. Check out oceanswims.com there's one almost every weekend in the season. A couple of years ago I decided to try to do as many of them as possible and it was the best thing for my open water confidence. At the start I was apprehensive, after a bunch of ocean swims in varying surf and weather conditions, suddenly lining up at the start line of a triathlon didn't feel scary at all!

In general it's worth keeping in mind that open water swimming is a whole different ballgame from pool swimming so worth getting some practice in before th HIM. Which one are you targetting by the way?

Mouse: swims in less fast lane, cute female, member of inferior Hills Tri Club, doing Gold Coast Half Ironman in October.

Shot'is: studly male specimen, wife swims in fast lane, wife beats him at most things, member of superior Balance Tri Club, swam in less fast lane on Monday, is doing Yeppoon this weekend.

wt

Thanks again guys for the advice

I reckon I will probably hit up the local Manly pool when it re-opens, alternatively the local Warringah Aquatic Centre will also have something on offer for me



If this romance takes hold it will be in '09 and out of the following 3

a) Gold Coast
Port Macquarie or a distant
c) Canberra

The first two are front runners as it will be easier to bribe Mrs Shadow with a bit of a holiday also

Cheers
IHS

Squad, squad squad. I had mates that told me to go and swim with a squad for a number of years and I never get around to it. I used to swim train on the basis of race distance. If I was swimming 1.9, I would swim 1.9 straight x 3 a week, 1500, the same. It is no surprise that I was consistently in the last 1/3 of the field. My swimming has improved greatly with a squad.It is ALL about technique. I took my 1500 from 27 to 20:30 and my 3800 from 1:18 to 59 in 12 months in races.

I have been following this thread with keen interest as I am keen to try my first mini tri next year, but swimming is my weakness too. It looks like the squad seems to be the way to go, although it sounds so serious. I hope they take it easy on me

Once I work out how to stop cramping in the calves and feet I might start with stroke correction and drills and whatnot. At the moment I cramp after about 20 laps.

But what if it's your poor form causing you to cramp WOOH?

I seem to be more likely to cramp in the afternoons/evenings rather than in the mornings...

If you're not a strong or regular swimmer, definitely get your stroke checked out before you reinforce bad habits by ramping up the volume in the pool. And get in a squad if you want to improve your all round strength/speed.

One of the biggest failures of people getting into multi-sport training is illustrated in Plaz's comments. I did the same as him when I started training on the bike - I'd just trundle around at the same speed, and had no real focus other than always trying to ensure that I averaged over 30km/hr for each ride.

If you're coming from a running background, then by now you would realise your weekly program is going to include a variety of speed, strength/hill, tempo, long run and recovery sessions. Yet often when guys start out swimming or biking they just swim/ride the same type session over and over.

A swim program will include a variety of drills, distances and endurance sets. Being consistent with a squad is the easiest way to ensure you're including all necessary sets.

incidentally, why a HIM as your focus? I'm always curious with new guys coming into Tris saying they want to do an IM or do a HIM. Don't devalue the merits of a decently run sprint race, or perhaps an Olympic distance.

One of the beauties of Tris is that it's extremely difficult to completely nail a race. There's too many logisitics to the race to get every part of it exactly right - it could be your transition, or your run pacing, your starting sprint, or your nutrition, or your swim surges, or your finishing kick etc, etc... So perfecting a sprint distance race can be just as much an achievement as finishing a HIM, which most people seem to jump up to without getting the basics sorted first

It's similar to people starting out in running. Most guys joining up to CR state that they eventually want to run a marathon one day without ever realising their best potential in a 5k or 10k race.

just a little bug bear of mine

Thanks for the hot tips Plaz and Miners.

I am certainly guilty of being one of the runners who (loosely!) attends to the different aspects of a running training program (ie. hills, LSD, speed etc.); however when it has come to my swim and bike I just do the same thing... over and over. It's no wonder I am making little progress

I shall endeavour to get my sorry ass to a swim squad ASAP, like you Plaz I have had many good intentions for quite some time and lots of advice that this is the way to go!

I think it is mostly apprehension causing my procrastination, worry about getting dropped in a bunch ride, what happens if I get a flat, will I be able to keep up in the pool, yada yada.

Thanks guys

Agree with you on the IM and HIM 'bug bear' of yours, Miners. I find the same thing also in running circles.

I am (relatively) young (23) and am honestly in no great hurry to go beyond my half marathons and sprint / olympic distance triathlons just yet. As a result of my 'complacency' as I think it is sometimes viewed as, I experience some pressure from fellow runners to go the 'full distance'.... all in good time, I say!!

Patience, after all, is a virtue, is it not?

nice to hear from you Shan. Like you, I trained at the same 30-32km/hr avg speed on the bike for 2 years when I started - and then simply ended up racing at 30-32km/hr as well ...

But don't get me wrong - if you're disciplined enough, you don't really need a squad at all. Much the same as you don't need a bike group or running group to achieve a program provided you can trust yourself to stick with it. A lot of guys training up here do go to a swim squad - but still do the bulk of their swim training on their own. Just go in there with a purpose, and stick to it.

I occasionally go down to a 'social' squad of guys who don't take things very seriously. They're still ridiculously fast swimmers, and the sets are lung-burning hard - but there's no fees, no pressures, just everyday social sledging. If you're lucky enough to have one of those in your area, you're laughing.

Hi Miners,

Fair question - and I guess the answer is that is a longer term goal (over 1 year away) and along the way I will certainly do the 'shorter' stuff, and personally I like the challenge it presents. Who knows I may find I hate the entire concept, or get addicted to the shorter stuff (like I am with running). But it's something I have thrown out there for myself to have a crack at.

Cheers
IHS

exactly - or really, if at all. No particular reason to run a marathon just because you're a runner. Seb Coe was a pretty damn fine runner. So was Herb Elliot.

Same goes for Tris. Unfortunately, with the dearth of international Tri coverage and collapse of the National Series of Sprint and Olympic Tris (remember the old Tooheys Blue, St George, Accenture series etc..?), the public only gets to see the occasional IM wonder-story of the car-crash victim who broke his back, had a lung transplant, was given up for dead and has now come back and 'raced' an Ironman (finishing somewhere near 16 hours). All kudos to the poor guy - but these are the triathlon role models that most newcomers seem to aspire to - rather than the Kahlefeldts, Gomez, Snowsill, Fernandez, et al

(puts soapbox away)

more than a fair answer too mate And I certainly didn't mean it as having a go at anyone aspiring to do a HIM or IM. They're great goals to have - and having a long term focus (as with running) is the easiest way to structure a program too.

If you find yourself enjoying the training, try and find a local Tri Club, get along to their sprint races, find a bunny who's just a minute or 2 ahead of you, and much like your Striders 10kers, I reckon you'll get the most satisfaction out of your tris by 'racing' him from month to month

Just what I was going to say

While the benefits of squads and group rides are obvious, some of us work really weird hours or have other commitments that stop us getting there. In my case, it's all the above plus chronic shyness in a group situation (Stop laughing, Miners).

I found out early in my career that I was disciplined enough to do the hard stuff alone, including sprints and efforts on bike and in the pool. and I am coming along nicely (I think). Very late starter in my case.

As long as you have a yardstick to gauge your progress, such as occasional attendance at squad or regular racing, you can go solo if that is your go.

M

oh dear, i think i've got this very wrong. with measureable progress like Plaz has shown, my idea of "what i lose on the swim i'll make up running" look pretty stupid. i was thinking 2-3 minutes over 1500-1900m, but if those sort of improvements are possible, then i'd need to be running 3min k's to make up the difference. bugger, that's one good reason to get in the speedos before the day itself. the second is the "how" to train. as a low mileage person for both bike and running, i have found that the mix it up approach is definitely a good way to go. i'm liking the wind trainer and a few 2-3k efforts on the road (when i get back to it shortly) for cycling. but, for swimming, the approach has been for a 1500m plod along as you described.
got any tips for how to like it though?
thanks for the motivating points
PH

The most important part of improving your swimming is that you get out of the water fresher. Getting onto your bike feeling terrible with a gut full of water is not a nice way to start. The more you swim, the more efficient you become as long as you have or are being shown good to excellent technique.

I was firmly in the camp of not swimming extra as I could run or ride that time and improve there. Well, improving 19 minutes from 1:18 to 59 in the swim leg of an Ironman is a whole lot easier than taking 4:58 for the 180 down to 4:39 or then run from 3:40 to 3:21 or better yet 3:21 down to 3:02.! It is the same for all distances. Another bonus of getting out of the water faster is that you get to ride with faster cyclists. Working legally has an enormous pacing benefit. Getting out of the water late you are all on your own.

and also only the slow bikes are left on the racks to choose from

Well, in that case, my bike will still be there whatever!

Technique is almost everything in swimming, mindless swimming will get you nowhere but mindless running will still yield dividends (not as much as a program). Get a squad, swim with them 3 times a week and you should be able to make yourself a decent swimmer (I did starting at 24).

Is this you Miners?

The bikes are not slow.

It is the swimmers. I am lucky that I normally only have a selection of up to a couple of bikes after I come out of the water.

For a person who wears glasses it helps to not have too many choices. And no I have never taken the wrong bike. I have my purple look shoes next to my bike and glasses in my helmet.

Wildthing, not long to our rematch at Nepean, I think we will have Mouse also in the mix. You ladies will thrash me with your GCHIM training.

it's the prettiest side of me, yes

photo was taken in '06 up at Lake Catharaba north-west of Noosa - and therefore certainly within your training grounds P.Horse!

I'd like to say I swam to the other side and back, but from memory it's about 3.5km across. So I only did it twice

yes... I really need to get back swimming with the tri squad.. Just that I'm scared to because they are all too good!

I'm doing my first squad swim session tomorrow night.
I have swum with some of the guys before, but only as part of a transition session.
After swimming on Saturday in a transition session, I came to the conclusion that I really need to improve.
Hopefully a lot.
More swimming, more often for the next 8 weeks.
4 weeks to become less embarrassing before Sprintman, then 4 weeks to hopefully become competent before Noosa

After making it through a squad session last night, I thought I'd head down to my nearest Sports Retail chain store and buy a pull buoy and some flippers, possibly a kick board.
I walked out without any of that stuff, mainly due to the fact the cheapest pull buoy they had was $23.
Is this normal?!
Heck, I might need 2 to keep me afloat anyway, they are not designed with the Clydesdale athlete in mind.....

the only thing I can suggest to get the prices down is to buy one of those pull buoys which double as a kick board. Speedo make one which is what I use (if I ever drag myself to the pool that is). It cost around $25. Zoggs fins can be picked up for about $30.

I think I got my pull buoy on ebay for about $10
Fins from Rebel Sport for about $25

At 194cm, I feel your pain. I swim with 40 something kilo women and some pretty small blokes. My legs are longer than some of them are tall (nearly). Why I ask should persons like us use/be expected to use the same flotation as the under tall/non weighty?

For he record, I swim with TWO buoys when I use band as my toes nearly touch the bottom with 1 in the shallower pools.

hey plazbot,if you finish your stroke properly with the littlefishytail bit at the thigh with thearm straight or nearly striaght and rotate your trunk your legs should stay up,assuming you have the same relative proportions of arm/trunk and legs as anyone else,practice,practise,practize(i can't remember the spelling,i'm on holiday)

I have a question about flippers (or fins for the scuba divers).

Why are some long and some short?

Other than the really long ones (the scuba/free dive ones), the difference in the length of the fins isn't 'too' important (see the rider below *), it's more the stiffness. Stiffer fins are recommended for experienced swimmers with good leg strength - the more flexy fins are recommended if you haven't used fins for training before. It's not uncommon for new squad swimmers to cramp quite badly in their first session with fins. So go for the most flexy ones you can find to begin with.

And getting back to your original query*, longer fins tend to naturally push more water in the pool (even if they are made of fairly flexy material). So the best bet would be short, flexy fins. Long flexy fins are probably going to be OK too, but only do a couple of short bursts with them the first time in the pool. Build your leg strength before you try doing long 400m+ sets with them for example.

Thanks Miners. I've got the long flexi ones and I've been doing about 10 laps with them on, then about 2 with them off (or until I start to sink) and then finish off with about 10 laps of breastroke. Second stroke correction class tonight and I am loving it.

Thanks again, and sorry for the hijack.

OH, if only I had read this before my squad session tonight.
I ended up buying shorter fins at the pool, mainly because that was what they had in my size.
I can confirm the cramping badly scenario first hand!
I dragged myself out mid lap with a massive (as bad as I've ever had) calf cramp.

I am a poor swimmer and have been watching this thread for a while. Am reading the new copy of Triathlon and Multi Sports and they have an article on Total Immersion. Has anyone been to one of the classes before?

Site is http://www.tiswim.com.au/

I went to a free session with 6 mates. The participants' perceived value from it was a bit mixed. Some got it - others didn't. It did seem to work for me, but I think that was partly due to the fact that the TI stroke is very similar to what I currently do anyway (sort of long gliding/skating strokes with the kick coming from the hips). Admittedly, we were only there for 90 minutes or so, so it's not a fair trial I guess.


Personally though, I really liked the idea of "holding" the water and visualising trying to slip "past" it, rather than "pull" through the water like I'd always been taught (and no doubt 90% of us have). For that particular concept alone, I'd recommend anyone who struggles with the water, or gets out of a 2km+ set feeling fatigued in the upper body to give it a shot. The principle is to get you to relax more and use less energy

They recommend doing a series of sessions to really get it right - and I could see the merit of that, particularly if you're trying to break out of an old habit (it's expensive though). If you can get your hands on one of the DVD's then they're pretty good if you're able to visualise well when you're back down at the pool on your own.